On the morning of November 3, 2023, H.E. Mr. Zhao Weiping, Ambassador of the People’s Republic of China to the Republic of Namibia, had an exclusive interview with Mr. Toivo Ndjebele, Chief Editor of the Nambian Sun at The Agenda, a well-known TV program of the Namibia Media Holdings. The interview was broadcast on NTV, a TV channel of the Namibia Media Holdings and on the Facebook page of the Namibian Sun on the evening of November 5, 2023. Below is the transcript of the interview.
Q: A very good evening to everyone watching. Thank you for joining us tonight on The Agenda. My name is Toivo Ndjebele, your host. Tonight, we are graced with the presence of Chinese Ambassador to Namibia, His Excellency Zhao Weiping. He's here to bring us up to speed with his work in Namibia, China, China's policy, and everything related to that. Ambassador, such an honor to have you on the platform. So thank you very much for making time. You've been in the country for around 9 months now, a short period, but also a long period to make an impression of the country. What has been your impression so far for Namibia?
A: Thank you, Toivo, for having me. Yes, time really flies. I've been here in Namibia as Chinese Ambassador for already 9 months. I had a very busy but very happy time here. My friends in China also asked me the same question. What's my impression of Namibia so far? I told them that Namibians are very good people. And Namibia, as a country, is a good citizen of the international community. And of course my impression of Namibia is much more than that.
I always tell my Namibian friends here that Namibia is a country having enormous potential of economic development. Namibia is the 34th largest country in the world in terms of land size, larger than all the European countries except Russia. And although Namibia has a small population, I don't think it's fair to regard Namibia as a small country. It's not so difficult for every country to grow its population, but it's almost impossible to grow its territory. So Namibia is indeed very lucky to enjoy such a large land size as a country. And Namibia is endowed with rich natural resources. Nobody knows how many treasures are buried underground in such a vast country. Recently you have discovered the oil and gas in Namibia, and nobody knows what other major discoveries will be made in future. And also Namibia enjoys unparalleled wind and solar resources in the world. That's why now you have become the focus of the whole world. And you have achieved encouraging progress in developing green hydrogen program. In addition, Namibia is also well-known for its stable social and legal environment, which is also very important to attract international investment.
Of course, Namibia is also faced with a lot of serious challenges, such as the drought and shortage of water, and economic dependence on some other countries and also the inadequate educational infrastructure. But I think the Namibian Government and people are working very hard to tackle all those challenges. It's my opinion that in 5 or 10 years time, Namibia's economy will make a big difference. So I do believe that Namibian people have a lot of reason to be optimistic about your future.
Q: Wonderful. Speaking of that future, His Excellency, what would be China's approach to that? There are established relations already, bilateral, economic, developmental relations. And we see a lot of countries getting involved in the key resources that you just mentioned, oil and gas, green hydrogen. Does China have any ambitions to be involved in some of those sectors in a way that you can be of assistance to the country?
A: China and Namibia have been very good partners in many aspects ever since the establishment of diplomatic relations between our two countries 33 years ago. So we have always been supporting each other and helping each other. This bilateral relationship benefits both sides. China has consistently provided economic assistance to Namibia according to our ability. We have conducted a series of development assistance projects here in Namibia. And we will certainly continue to do that to help improve your infrastructure, agriculture development and other areas. Recently in South Africa, while addressing the China-Africa Leaders’ Dialogue, Chinese President Xi Jinping put forward new initiatives and plans to support Africa's industrialization, agricultural modernization and talent development. I think we can work together closely with the Namibian side to ensure that these initiatives and plans will benefit Namibia. That's the one thing I think we should do in future.
The second thing is that I do think we can forge closer economic cooperation between our two countries in various fields, not only in the mining sector, but also in renewable energy like green hydrogen and other areas. We can also conduct more projects within the framework of China's Belt and Road Initiative. China also stands ready to expand its import from Namibia by providing Namibia's agricultural and aquatic products with more access to the Chinese market. So indeed we have a lot to do together for the future China-Namibia cooperation.
Q: What can you tell a layman, His Excellency, a layman who does not understand the road and belt initiative? I hope I'm saying it in the right terminology. What is it?
A: The Belt and Road Initiative was proposed by President Xi Jinping 10 years ago in 2013. So this year actually marks the 10th anniversary of that initiative. That is basically an initiative for global economic cooperation. The aim is to push for economic globalization and common prosperity of the world. Specifically, it is targeted at forging closer connectivity among nations in terms of policy-making, infrastructure building, trade, financing and people. So the aim is to bring all the countries much closer to each other in all those areas I mentioned. It has won very wide support from the international community. Now 152 countries have joined this initiative and Namibia is one of them. In order to implement this initiative, the Chinese Government has established relevant financing institutions to support it. Because we know, for any project to be implemented, we need financial support. So we have established some financing institution to support that. But I have to clarify one point that this initiative is not an aid program, but rather it’s market-based cooperation between enterprises of different countries. And of course, the initiative will provide support to the cooperation between the enterprises. These are the major points about the Belt and Road Initiative.
Q:Is there anything happening in Namibia in terms of developmental projects, financing or anything that is being carried out under that initiative currently?
A: Yes, like the Husab Uranium Mine. That's the one that got the financial support from one of those financing institutions within the Belt and Road Initiative. I think in future we can together conduct more such projects, because Namibia also has very ambitious domestic development plans. You have those plans for building, for example, railways, port expansions, something like that. So I think we can link the Belt and Road Initiative with your domestic development plan to make use of the resources and support offered by the Belt and Road Initiative.
Q: As a representative of your government, Your Excellency, what makes the Chinese initiatives such as the Belt and Road Initiative, or even the loans that you extend, the concessional loans that you extend to the Namibian Government for different developmental projects, what makes those unique? What separates those interventions from those of other countries that are also in Africa? Because you are in Africa, in Namibia, I know that our government, in particular, not everybody, but our government and the ruling party are really fond of China. I personally am a great admirer of the Chinese developmental model. I think it's incredible what China has done, but what makes Chinese interventions in Africa a bit different from others?
A: I think we have Chinese way of doing things. We have our own philosophies and our own aspirations. I think there's one key point, which is very important. That is, China always believes that the cooperation we are undertaking with African countries falls into the category of South-South cooperation. Although China's economy has developed very fast, China is still a developing country. So I think that's the starting point for whatever China does in Africa. It's not always about what benefits China can enjoy from such cooperation. But it's about mutual support and help to our friends here. Actually, this kind of relationship has started long time ago. With the growth of our economic power, we are in a better position to provide our support and help to African countries. So we are determined to do more to the best of our capability. That's the one thing.
I just take the loan or the debt issue as an example. You may notice a phrase often used by the west to wrongly blame China, the so-called debt-trap. That means that China first makes the African countries deeply indebted to China, and then China will take advantage of that for other purposes. That's certainly not true. I want to use that as an example. We provide loans to African countries, not only for economic purpose, but also for the purpose of helping other countries. We never force any African country or other developing countries to borrow from us. And also equally important is that we never force other countries to repay the debt. If you have the difficulty in paying back, we can discuss a kind of arrangement to fully take into consideration of your difficulty. And actually for African countries, the debt mainly comes from borrowing from the Western countries or international financial organizations, and the debt to China still accounts for a small percentage. Take Namibia as an example, you haven't borrowed from China for almost 10 years already, and the debt owed by Namibia to China only accounts for 2% of your total debt. So it's not a problem. Also, I have to mention another point, that is, we never attach political conditions to those loans. In our engagement with African countries, we never impose our political will on them.
Q: That is very, very important. So, I know, for example that they said the road to the airport, I think it’s a Chinese funded project. I just want you, Ambassador (to explain something) for our viewers, because there's always this impression, this anti Chinese impression, which sometimes I think is embedded in ignorance. So if you were to use that particular project as an example, what is the arrangement there? What role is China playing in that project? What is Namibia doing there? What would be the end game? To say thank you, the parties are both happy, we part ways here. What is the arrangement there？
A: For the new airport 2B section project, that is fully funded by Chinese Government grant. It's a road about 21 kilometers long. The investment is about 1 billion Namibian dollars. So that is indeed a very large grant project. People may think what benefits we enjoy from that. I think it's just a help. We don't enjoy any commercial benefit from that. With the project, we just want to contribute our part to your own efforts in improving your infrastructure. Because we are friends, we just think we should do something. As you mentioned, it seems to me that there are indeed some people who do not hold very positive views about China. I think that's a very complicated issue. First, I think it is maybe because of some kind of Western influence. People in the West unwarrantedly label China as a neo-colonialist. And it's ironic for the descendants of old colonialists to label us as neo-colonialists. But I think Namibians and all the African people can make their own judgment by what China has done in Africa. That's certainly not true. We don't have any such intention to colonize Africa. It will be foolish to do that, and that's impossible, right?
And the other thing is maybe some of our Chinese nationals who work and live in Africa haven't respected the local culture and some of them even violated laws and regulations. So that may give people a bad impression. But I think those are individual cases, and we should not, because of those individual cases, deny the whole Chinese community. That's not fair, because for every country there are people who strictly abide by law, but there are also people who like to play with law. By saying that, the attitude of the Embassy is very clear. We hope all Chinese nationals here will abide by the laws of Namibia, respect the culture and live in harmony with the local general public. That's very important. We have been following the situation very closely and we have strengthened our dialogue with the Chinese community here.
Q:Absolutely. We go for a break and then we return with His Excellency Zhao Weiping.
Q: The conversation with the Ambassador continues. Now, His Excellency, I still want to take you back on that airport road. So it's a grant to the value of one billion Namibian dollars. There ought to be something for China in that project. What is it that China is getting out of that? For example, we know in the past, there used to be policies where China would say, for example, look, we’ll give you a grant provided that contract is carried out by a Chinese company or that a certain portion of workers must be from China and stuff like that. What is the arrangement in that regard here?
A: Yes, because that's a Chinese Government grant project, it has to be implemented by a Chinese company. But actually most of the workers are local workers. And so far as I know, for that specific project of the new airport 2B section road, only 20 to 30 people are from China and they employ 200 to 300 local workers. And they also subcontract to a lot of local companies. So that's the situation.
Q: Wonderful. You haven't really had an easy spell so far. I think, in terms of your mandate, you are doing your job very well, but you also had some sort of baptism of fire, if you like, where you called the media the other day to the Embassy, which was very good actually, to engage with the local media. But you spoke about, I mean one of the things that you addressed that day, was about what is it called, the visa situation. Because there were local reports that China is getting visa-free arrangement with Namibia. And you said at the time that it will actually be reciprocal, it's not just a one way thing. What can you tell us about that? Is there still progress? Or did those reports scare or put off the whole thing?
A:The mutual exemption of visa? That issue, I did touch it before. It's also in the news report. Currently, our two governments, we don't have any further discussion on that.
Q: Is it because of this report or it just happened naturally because of something else? Or has it been put off because of this scrutiny by the media?
A: I don't know really, but we are patient. We are not in a hurry, because such kind of arrangement is mutually beneficial. It should be the willingness of the two sides.
Q: In fact, some people even suggested that such arrangement will actually be more beneficial to Namibia, because I think currently many Namibians are struggling for the fees and the scrutiny that they have to (obtain to) go to China. And I think your Embassy is working very hard also to increase the number of Chinese tourists coming to Namibia. And this idea is that if the exemption kicks in, then we might actually see more Chinese tourists coming to Namibia, is that your thought also?
A: Yes, I certainly believe it. But it should be up to the Namibian side to decide whether such arrangement will benefit Namibia. But my personal opinion is that it will certainly bring very big benefits to Namibia. It will encourage more Chinese tourists coming to Namibia. We have such a large population, so it's not difficult for China to have 10,000 or 20,000 tourists to come to Namibia. And that will certainly be a very good news for the tourism industry here. Actually recently we had round table discussions with some of the tourist agencies in Namibia. They all want to have more Chinese tourists coming to Namibia and they said the Chinese tourists actually spend more than the Western tourists. Because for a lot of Western tourists coming to Namibia, of course a lot of pensioners of them, and also a lot of Western tourists coming here just rent SUVs and just drive around. They even don't stay at the hotels and just set up camps, something like that. But for the Chinese tourists, I think they are tourists more in the traditional sense. They come here and stay at the hotel and they buy all kinds of souvenirs. The average cost for one Chinese tourist is about N$70,000, and that doesn’t include international airfare. According to the tourists agencies here, they like to have more Chinese tourists.
But the big problem is the visa, because it will take a long time for the Chinese tourists to be issued a visa and also there's big uncertainty. Even if they wait for a long time, and eventually they may not be issued a visa. So that causes big problems. Because people in China, they just think it's so difficult, not convenient enough. And also because some of your hotels (have a policy, that is), if the tourists already made a reservation, the rooms cannot be canceled if they don’t get a visa. So (there are) a lot of practical problems caused by the visa policy situation.
Q: You alluded earlier on to the issue to the efforts, as a matter of fact, the attitude of the Embassy towards Chinese nationals or entities that do not adhere to the rules of the country. And it's not only, in fairness, it's not only Chinese nationals who, those individuals, isolated cases, are not only limited to Chinese citizens. There are citizens of other nationalities here who are either in jail here, or they have been arrested or they've been kicked out of the country also for violating domestic laws. We have a situation now around lithium. And they said a company and I don't think it's a state entity. It ought to be a private, but Chinese entity -- Xinfeng, it's always in the papers, shipping out lithium and stuff like that. Is that something that you monitor as an embassy and say, because obviously, when people say Chinese firm, Chinese company all the time, it also leaves a dark spot on the impression of China. Is it something that you monitor? Do you speak to the owners or how does it work?
A: First I should emphasize that all the Chinese companies, whether it's a state-owned or private company in Namibia, they should observe your law. There's no doubt about that. If they go against the law, they should be held accountable. That's the same thing in all the countries. So our attitude is very clear. We did have seen reports from time to time about the company you mentioned. I think I cannot comment on the specifics of the case, because actually we don't know what's really going on.
But we did have talked to the company for a lot of times to check what's going on. And sometimes they give us a different story from what is reported by the media here. But we told them whatever the truth is, you should be more sensitive. We told them they should be more sensitive to the laws and regulations, and also the culture, traditions and social norms. They should be more sensitive to that because they are doing business now here in Namibia. They should be more familiar with all those things. Most importantly, they should also have the willingness to live in harmony with the local community here.
Q: The ruling party in our country, which is very aligned to the Chinese Communist Party in terms of the ideological posture, SWAPO identifies itself as a socialist organization, communist in the 70s and 80s. I think it's only upon independence that because they found a particular structure here, that they realized that communism, in the true sense, will not be practical here. But you now hear in SWAPO or something called, I think they are borrowing from the Chinese Communist party, communism with Namibian characteristics, (“socialism”, corrected by the Ambassador), sorry, yeah, socialism with Namibian characteristics. And China has a similar phrase. When you look around here, do you think what China is doing, of the local context differs, but do you think it can be replicated here?
A: I should be very careful as ambassador to such questions, something related with your domestic policy or domestic politics. I should always be very sensitive. First, I want to say that SWAPO Party and the Communist Party of China did enjoy a long history of friendship dating back to 1960s. Our bilateral relations or the relation between the two countries, Namibia and China, actually started with the party, with the party relations, with the party friendship, long time ago. So even today, our two parties enjoy a lot of exchanges on various issues.
And for the SWAPO Party, you mentioned socialism with Namibian characteristics. I don't know whether they have taken China as an example in establishing their theory of socialism with Namibian characteristics. But for China, you are right, we are practicing socialism with Chinese characteristics. And that is a very important strategy for us, very strategic and very creative theoretical achievement for China. That theory was introduced by the Communist Party of China immediately after the cultural revolution. Since the new China was established in 1949, China had been exploring very actively on what kind of path of development, and what kind of system China should adopt. There were setbacks, but we have found a national development path suitable to our national conditions, and that is socialism with Chinese characteristics. Only with that theory, it became possible for us to adopt the reform and opening-up policy. And that's the fundamental reason why China developed so fast, creating two miracles of rapid economic developments and long-term social stability. And this trend is still going on. So we are now practicing socialism with Chinese characteristics in new era and pushing forward China’s path to modernization.
Q: In practical terms, what does it mean? What happens on the actual ground? Because as compared to the Western cultures, for example, socialism in China means what? People own property, or they do not own? Or it's a welfare state? How does socialism work there?
A: Socialism of course emphasizes on public ownership. But in the meantime, in China, we also have the various kinds of ownership coexisting with public ownership as the basic or as the main form of ownership. So that's the first one. And second, what’s very important of socialism with Chinese characteristics is that the whole nation is led by the Communist Party of China. That's very important. And also, we emphasize the role of the government in national economic activities, but also we respect the laws of the market economy.
Q: The impression that is always created in the Western media, the narrative of the West regarding China is that it relates to one party element. It brings into question the concept of democracy. Is China a democratic country? Or you have your own alternative, to say, we don't practice democracy in the Western sense, but we have our own alternative that helps us to run the country?
A: Sure, we are practicing collective democracy and whole-process people’s democracy. That's different. We do think that actually democracy is not just a beautiful slogan for the people. But what really matters is what real benefits the government will bring to the people. The past 40 years’ successful experience in China has proved that our system does work for the country and also work for the people. We have eradicated absolute poverty for a country of 1.4 billion people. It's not easy at all. So we have our own system of democracy. I think the success of China has established a good example. If other countries, especially the developing countries, want to learn from our example, they are most welcome. But we never think any country should copy the system or practice of other countries, because the national conditions are different. Whatever good experience is in other countries, you may make reference to that, but you have to adapt it to your national conditions. That's also the important lesson China learns. Because in the past, shortly after the founding of the People's Republic of China, we almost copied everything from the Soviet Union. Eventually, it turned out not to be a good case for China.
Q: Back to Namibia-China relations, this friendship, this partnership, this bilateral connection is supposed to be of mutual (benefit), supposed to be a win-win situation. What can China win from Namibia actually? What is it for a small country like ours?
A: Every country needs to have friends in the world, the more the better. And every country needs to trade and exchange with other countries as many as possible. So, no matter it's a small country or big country, it's only very natural for China, such a large country in the world, to expand our international relations. Of course, we do want to have more friends. Also because we enjoy profound traditional friendship, we have all the reason to constantly push forward our friendly relations and practical cooperation with Namibia.
And also, actually, I believe that our relationship with Namibia is mutually beneficial, not only for the economic cooperation, but also we are cooperating on a lot of regional and international issues. We enjoy a lot of valuable support from Namibia in various kinds of votings taking place in the United Nations or on other international occasions. So I think it's only right to describe this relationship as mutually beneficial, not only Namibia benefits from that, China also benefits from that. But I think seeking benefit is not the only consideration for us. Just as I mentioned before, we are both developing countries, and we are friends for many years, dating back even to your struggle for independence.
Q: I think as we draw towards the end of this very enlightening conversation, Ambassador, one of the issues that you also mentioned the other time when you invited journalists to the Embassy was, I think someone asked you a question or it was your own initiative, I can't remember, but it was around the competence of Chinese companies in Namibia, and why, for example, was there this whole thing about seven Chinese companies shortlisted for one project, none other, all seven companies were Chinese? And you were very articulate in what could have been the reason for that. For those who might have missed your explanation at that time, what can you say could have been the reason? Again, you were clear it's not a Chinese project. In fact, it's funded by a German development bank, but somehow, it ended up with seven Chinese companies being shortlisted. What would have been the reason there?
A: I think it's obvious Chinese construction companies are very active in Namibia. And of course some local companies or other international companies feel a kind of pressure of strong competition from the Chinese companies. That's understandable. But objectively speaking, we should also recognize the benefits Chinese construction companies bring to Namibia. The quality of their construction work is very good and also for any project conducted by the Chinese construction company, they are able to shorten the period of the time for construction. And that's also important. So put it simple, I think the service is of good quality, but the price is low. And actually so far as I know, I don't know whether it's true or not, a lot of Chinese companies, their profit is very low, although they are doing a lot of things.
Recently I told a friend here that because of green hydrogen development, you need to do a lot of improvement in infrastructure building. The Chinese companies, maybe they also can make their contribution. Because for all these infrastructure projects, time is also very valuable for Namibia in order for you to enjoy the benefits of green hydrogen at an early date. The time of building those infrastructure is also very important. But actually, although the Chinese construction companies are the main contractor of certain projects, they allocate a lot of work of the project to local subcontractors. So maybe we should also clarify the impression that it's all done by the Chinese company and all the profits go to the Chinese company. That's not the whole story.
Q: The final question to you, Your Excellency, Namibia enjoys the highest level of relations with China. I think the (comprehensive) strategic (cooperative) partnership is the highest that your government can accord to another country. Going forward, in not so many words, what can still be done to punch above our weights as a two friendly countries? What more can be achieved? So much has already been achieved, but can more be done or we have reached the ceiling now?
A: No, never the ceiling, never the ceiling. Recently, actually, in August, President Xi Jinping and President Geingob held another successful bilateral meeting in South Africa on the sidelines of BRICS summit, and that meeting between our two Presidents was very good. It was also very important for the future development of our bilateral relations. As I mentioned earlier in our chat today, there's great potential in all the aspects. And as Ambassador here, my priority now is to work for more cooperation in the area of agriculture, educational infrastructure, and talent development. These are three areas of my priority as Ambassador here, because agriculture is so important for Namibia, either for food security or for solving the problem of unemployment. I'm very sensitive. I am following very closely all the issues which might be related to a possible agricultural cooperation between our two countries. Recently, I read from the newspaper that Namibia is experiencing a serious food shortage. I immediately reported that to the Chinese Government and I'm very glad that the Chinese Government has made the announcement to provide ten million Chinese yuan grant to Namibia for emergency food aid. So I do hope that our two countries can do more in the area of agriculture. Also educational infrastructure, the more I visited the schools in various regions, the more I realize the urgent need for more infrastructure building in education area. For example, you need to build at least another 4,000 classrooms to accommodate the real needs. So these are the things as Ambassador I shall work hard and achieve something.
Q: Absolutely. Thank you for coming.
A: It was a good conversation.